Too quick to give up on McCoy?
by AnthonyK on Feb 21, 2012 9:28 AM EST
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PrintMaybe this is just me being biased...but I really don't think that it's fair to give up on Colt just yet. Looking back, he did show some flashed of being a good-to-great NFL quarterback. I know that he has struggled horribly against the division (it is the toughest division, however), but I think that the kid's shown an awful lot of heart, and he does have a history of being a winner.
He had no offseason really before being the full time starter. No training camp, in a new WCO that he's never played before. There was also no training camp for his rookie receiver Greg Little, and the rest of his targets were average at best. Shurmur didn't help him at all with the play calling, but I think that Childress will help significantly with Shurmur's ability to call the plays. But that's another story.
I'm not sold on RG3, but more so, I'm not sold on dumping yet another quarterback that we called "the future" without giving him a legitimate chance. And he's sure better than any of those guys (Brady Quinn, Charlie Frye, Derek Anderson...). Colt is a smart kid who I think can be a winner in this league. Everyone says we need a quarterback more like Flacco. Line up their numbers before the concussion last year...(The top is McCoy, the bottom is Flacco) (Sorry that I couldn't align them better)
| QBRat | Comp | Att | Yds | Y/A | Lng | Int | TD | Att | Yds | Y/A | Lng | TD | Sack | SackYds | Fum | FumL |
| 74.6 | 265 | 463 | 2733 | 5.9 | 56 | 11 | 14 | 61 | 212 | 3.5 | 9 | 0 | 32 | 173 | 11 | 2 |
| 71.4 | 263 | 465 | 3122 | 6.7 | 74 | 9 | 15 | 33 | 45 | 1.4 | 33 | 1 | 24 | 159 | 11 | 6 |
Surprised?
Colt's numbers are really similar, if not better in some categories. And considering the talent around Flacco, he should be blowing Colt out of the water. I get that Colt has had some not-so-great moments as well, but is it too early to throw him away?
Here's what I think:
Give him one more year. Draft Clairborne at 4 and Kendall Wright at 22. Pick up another good receiver in free agency (Garcon, Meachem, Amendola, maybe even Bowe?). Surround him with the opportunity to succeed. Don't waste a pick on a quarterback when there are SO many more holes around the team to fill.
Give him a real offseason and training camp. Give him a year of losing and experience under his belt, to motivate him and help him to grow. Give his coach and new offensive coordinator an opportunity to look at what they have, and learn how to use it. Give him Little, Wright, (FA receiver), Ben Watson, Evan Moore, the emerging receiver Cribbs, and a healthy running game, and watch him start winning. And if not, that's a good young core to throw a new quarterback into in the following season.
Thoughts?
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It might be too early to quit on him, but I am so tired of all the people making excuses for him and coddling him. He was never the QBOTF, he was always, maybe the QBOTF. He had a season to prove it and wasn’t very good. Frankly I don’t really see him as a good leader or a winner. His play and demeanor often seem selfish and all about Colt.
I don’t think he’s selfish at all. He’s just skittish and jumpy in the pocket.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Feb 21, 2012 12:42 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Are you shitting me?
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Feb 21, 2012 10:36 AM EST reply actions 10 recs
Shorter Colt McCoy lovers: “I wish I knew how to quit you.”
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 21, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve never coddled him, & don’t plan to start either. I do believe that consistency and learning go hand in hand for the team to grow. If we can make the coaching staff as stable as the front office seems to be, it will show throughout the team. With that being said, we already know where I stand on the trade up debate and the reasons why. IMO, the front office will add 3 to 4 difference makers this season and we will win 7 to 9 games in the upcoming season, because of the added talent and the teaching/knowledge transfer. I still like the QB class in the 2013 draft better.
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Once you start agreeing with TDSH, you know that you're wrong.
I still like the QB class in the 2013 draft better.
Screw that, I hear there’s a 7 yr. old in Maryland that can throw a Nerf football 30 yards and has passed the Presidential Physical Fitness test twice. Let’s draft O-lineman and WRs with all of our picks from now until 2027; then the team will be setup and we can grab that kid.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Feb 21, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Let’s draft O-lineman and WRs with all of our picks from now until 2027.
Gee, who would you have RGIII throw the ball to? Little is one WR, Cribbs needs to go back to where he is the best at, and MoMass needs to get cut, leaving Norwood. Looks like a great collection to throw to, guess Griffin will do a lot of running.
You’ve got opinion and I’ve got mine. We don’t matter, H&H make the decisions.
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Once you start agreeing with TDSH, you know that you're wrong.
Lucky for the Browns, they have other draft picks this year, and maybe even Free Agency.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Feb 21, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Thats true and that why I like this front office. They’ve done some very smart moves to make this team more talented.
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Once you start agreeing with TDSH, you know that you're wrong.
And we even have seven whole draft picks next year. And seven more after that!
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 21, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Thats true Capt Obvious. Do you have have any other nuggets of wisdom?
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Once you start agreeing with TDSH, you know that you're wrong.
Well if its so obvious why are people acting like we can only draft QB and nothing else?
by HenryDawg on Feb 21, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
IDK, could it be the “give them whatever it takes to get RGIII” thingy that I’ve seen about a zillion times? I’m all for an upgrade at QB if it’s gonna get done right and not destroy said QB’s career. Also, if I was to throw out the 2 first round picks, I’d be looking at Andrew Luck & not RGIII. If the FO goes for QB in the 1st round then we need to add some WR’s in FA, so we have to throw some cash out there. If you go all in , then go all in and do it right – get the best that you can get.
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Once you start agreeing with TDSH, you know that you're wrong.
Screw that, I hear there’s a 7 yr. old in Maryland that can throw a Nerf football 30 yards and has passed the Presidential Physical Fitness test twice. Let’s draft O-lineman and WRs with all of our picks from now until 2027; then the team will be setup and we can grab that kid.
This was so funny that I signed up for an account just so I could rec it.
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous." -Bill Watterson
by Brown's Browns on Feb 23, 2012 7:06 AM EST up reply actions
Welcome to the club!
Why did the Steeler fan grow a mustache? So he could look like his mother.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 23, 2012 7:16 AM EST up reply actions
Well, I’ve been reading and enjoying your guys posts on here for years, and, so, I figured it was as good as any time to hop in. I honestly don’t why I opened the thread because I’m so bored about the Colt discussion. I don’t know that anybody is saying that it isn’t a little unfair to Colt to be going in a different direction, but RGIII is, for lack of a better term, pedigree. And that is where the discussion should end. I wish at least.
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous." -Bill Watterson
by Brown's Browns on Feb 24, 2012 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
Heard a caller on the radio last night say, essentially, “I don’t even really like McCoy; I’d just rather wait another year and go after a guy like Barkley next year if he still stinks. That’s a guy I love.”
And I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but folks, the stars are aligned. We have a top 5 pick this year and extra picks to move up if we have to, and a quarterback who WOULD be the #1 pick in a draft that didn’t feature Andrew Luck. But as it so happens, Luck will be the #1 pick and we have a team at 2 that doesn’t need a QB. Those are three things opportunity is using to smack Cleveland in the face. This is a chance that doesn’t just present itself every year, maybe not every decade.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 23, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I totally agree with this. The 2013 draft class is better, and if you don’t agree with that go look up a few of the projected guys coming up. They’re good. Give Colt one more shot, use these draft picks to build up the rest of the team, and if the season still tanks then we can put that on him.
Why are you assuming we will be in a position to take a QB next year?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Looking back, he did show some flashed of being a good-to-great NFL quarterback.
Like what?
I think that the kid’s shown an awful lot of heart, and he does have a history of being a winner.
Lots of people have heart, and wins are a team accomplishment.
I’m not sold on dumping yet another quarterback that we called “the future” without giving him a legitimate chance.
Nobody smart called Colt the future. He was always a lottery ticket. A lot of us thought we saw some potential, but he was never anything close to a top prospect.
What is a legitimate chance to you? We’ve given him a season and a half, and rather than even treading water he seems to have actually gotten worse.
And he’s sure better than any of those guys (Brady Quinn, Charlie Frye, Derek Anderson…).
Derek Anderson has had a better career than Colt McCoy. Frankly, there’s more to be excited about with Anderson, because he at least had one season where he played well. This is not an endorsement of Anderson, it is a massive strike against Colt.
Everyone says we need a quarterback more like Flacco.
Who is saying that!? Flacco is bad, the Ravens would be smart to replace him.
Most importantly however, please obey the site guidelines. Other than comparing Colt to Flacco (and honestly, why bother?) there is nothing new here. Fanposts are for new discussions. There is also a post up specifically for draft talk, which says to put all draft thoughts there.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Joe Flacco sucks.
Why did the Steeler fan grow a mustache? So he could look like his mother.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 21, 2012 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
Other than comparing Colt to Flacco (and honestly, why bother?) there is nothing new here. Fanposts are for new discussions. There is also a post up specifically for draft talk, which says to put all draft thoughts there.
It was new to the poster, I don’t believe he/she would have bothered if if it wasn’t so. One paragraph out of five mentioned the draft, so the stories more about what the posters subject was. Even if you don’t like it, it’s still the posters opinion and you shouldn’t be trying to squash it. If you don’t like it, either tell them why you don’t agree or ignore it.
This is still the USA, even on this site, Big Brother is not totally in charge yet.
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Once you start agreeing with TDSH, you know that you're wrong.
Bottom line, creating a FanPost is posting something with the intention of creating a new discussion.
This is directly quoted from the community guidelines, which you should read in full here. It doesn’t matter if it was new to him. It has to be new to the site.
Even if you don’t like it, it’s still the posters opinion and you shouldn’t be trying to squash it
I am not trying to prevent him from posting his opinion. In fact, I would have been totally justified had I deleted the entire post, so I’m actually being lenient here. I am simply telling him to post in the correct place. This fanpost brought literally nothing new to the table aside from comparing Colt to Flacco. That is not what fanposts are for.
If you don’t like it, either tell them why you don’t agree or ignore it.
You’ll kindly notice I told him exactly why I didn’t like it.
This is still the USA, even on this site, Big Brother is not totally in charge yet.
First, no politics. Second, free speech does not apply to forums on the internet. Free speech means the government can’t censor you. We are free to control the content of this blog as we see fit.
Most importantly, the community guidelines also state that if you have a problem with the way the site is moderated you are to email a mod, not complain about it on the thread.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So this site does advocate BB.
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Once you start agreeing with TDSH, you know that you're wrong.
This site has clear posting guidelines. If people don’t follow those guidelines they can’t post here. I think it’s pretty clear that even if the mods might disagree with someone, we let them post what they want. What we don’t allow is people ignoring the rules.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
Just for the Record, I hope the Ravens keep Flacco, because of that very reason. I would be completely on the “get a better QB train” if we had the other people to play opposite of that said QB, at this time we have very marginal players there. If we can reverse that (FA) prior to the draft, then , I’m all for moving up and taking the Best QB that my draft picks can buy, which would be Luck.
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Once you start agreeing with TDSH, you know that you're wrong.
1) Beating some pretty good teams off the bat, when Delhomme and Wallace went down. Have you watched a game? When he wasn’t lying on his back or having a good chunk of his passes dropped, he wasn’t awful by any means.
2) Did DA have heart? That’s why the crowd cheered when he got injured and Ken Dorsey stepped in for the rest of the game. The Browns haven’t had a real winner at QB in years.
3) And a legitimate chance is playing him with an actual coach (which Shurmur should be better, especially with Childress), in a system that he’s had a season to learn (this was totally new to him), and with an actual offseason/training camp to give him a shot to grow.
4) Did I already mention the crowd cheering when DA went down with an injury? Have you watched him OR Braylon (who is now chilling in free agency) since that fluke of a season? I actual got excited at times by Colt, especially when Hillis was back (which helped the offense a ton)
5) Have you watched an AFC North debate on ESPN this past year? Most of them LOVE Flacco, and Roethlisberger. They say that because of that, we need a big, strong-armed quarterback, “A Joe Flacco”, if you will.
I’m not just throwing random statements together here. I have a clue what I’m talking about. I appreciate and respect your opinion, but what is your option here? Draft another, in my opinion, questionable quarterback when we have 1,000 other holes to fill? We need to take the players who can make the biggest impact in comparison to what we have now. As a lifelong Browns fan, I’m so sick of losing. Give me some sign of big improvement, give me something to be excited and confident about. And if that isn’t Colt, then the next guy that we bring in will be surrounded by talent. The job is his to lose.
Beating some pretty good teams off the bat, when Delhomme and Wallace went down.
The two teams the team beat were the Saints and Patriots. Against the saints, Colt McCoy completed a whopping 9 passes out of a massive 16 attempts for a dazzling 74 yards. Not 174, just 74. That’s 4.6 YPA for those keeping track at home. Thats not fair though, I should really give the offense credit for that one touchdown Peyton Hillis scored. In fact, I should probably credit the 125 yards rushing the team had. But obviously it’s those nine passes that won the game.
Against the Patriots, he completed 14 of 19 passes, so obviously he was shouldering the load here. This time he at least threw for 174 yards. Of course, he threw no touchdowns in either victory. In this game the Browns ran for 230(!) yards on 44 attempts. But I’m sure that even though they ran the ball more than twice as often as they threw Colt is the reason they won.
When he wasn’t lying on his back or having a good chunk of his passes dropped, he wasn’t awful by any means.
Yes, he was. You’ll recall he threw an interception on a ball he tried to throw out of bounds. Colt McCoy wasn’t accurate enough to throw the ball away.
Did DA have heart?
No, he didn’t. But he did have a season where he played at a pro bowl leve. I’ll take DA’s 2007 over Colt’s 2011 any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
And a legitimate chance is playing him with an actual coach (which Shurmur should be better, especially with Childress), in a system that he’s had a season to learn (this was totally new to him), and with an actual offseason/training camp to give him a shot to grow.
So Colt needs all of these things, but guys like Newton, Dalton, and Smith don’t.
Did I already mention the crowd cheering when DA went down with an injury? Have you watched him OR Braylon (who is now chilling in free agency) since that fluke of a season? (which helped the offense a ton)
That totally misses the point. With DA, at least you have proof that he has the ability to play well. You have actual proof, he has done it before. Colt has never thrown for 300 yards in a game. He has never had a game half as good as DA’s 2007 season.
I actual got excited at times by Colt, especially when Hillis was back
Why? What was there to be excited about? He completed less than 52% of his passes in half of his starts last year.
Have you watched an AFC North debate on ESPN this past year? Most of them LOVE Flacco, and Roethlisberger. They say that because of that, we need a big, strong-armed quarterback, "A Joe Flacco", if you will.
We are not on ESPN, are we? If you had bothered to read what other people were saying on this site before writing a fanpost, you would know that most of us think Joe Flacco is bad at football.
what is your option here?
My opinion is pretty clear. I don’t think Colt McCoy is a good quarterback and I don’t think you read the community guidelines before posting.
Draft another, in my opinion, questionable quarterback when we have 1,000 other holes to fill?
What is questionable about RG3? More importantly, what positive things do we already know about Colt that we don’t know about Griffin?
We need to take the players who can make the biggest impact in comparison to what we have now.
Like maybe the most important position on the field?
give me something to be excited and confident about.
Like a quarterback?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I haven’t had the energy to do something like that in a long time.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
what positive things do we already know about Colt that we don’t know about Griffin?
I also think, grumpiness aside, this is the most important part of that rant. A lot of people have complained about RG3 being a risk or an unknown. I can’t think of a single positive thing we know about Colt that we don’t also know is true about Griffin.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
1) He didn’t do squat to beat the saints
2) Colt can have a winner attitude, but if he sucks, all that positivity and heart is meaningless. Oh, and I heard RG3 might have those things too.
3) Colt had a legitimate chance. He was given the starting job and 1st team reps in camp. Yes, the offseason is shortened, but how quickly we remember “camp colt” and all the work he put in learning the offense. He showed about 2 games (around week 10-12) where he may have finally grasped the offense, but it turned out to be a fluke and he was just facing shitty Ds.
4) People didn’t like DA, but they like Colt. I have not gotten as excited about Colt as I did about DA in 2007. I have also gotten just as frustrated with Colt and his interceptions on the run as I have gotten frustrated with DA over the years.
5) Honestly, Flacco was improving every season and looked like a legitimate franchise QB up until this year.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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He actually outplayed Brady in the AFCCG but he is probably average at best. He is good for the Ravens though.
I’d say its really hard to say if he is “average” at best or was good but just had a bad year. Through most of the year, Rivers’ wasn’t much better. Rivers has definitely established himself as a better QB, but it’s not like Flacco has been bad. Among active QBs, he ranks right around Palmer who was great at one point.
Not saying he is good, but an 86 career QB rating is not “average at best” imo.
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If you read something from anywhere else on DBN, you’ll see why we should draft a QB.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Feb 21, 2012 12:45 PM EST via Android app reply actions
Someone broke the internet again.
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
Al Gore did, cuz he wasn’t getting his royalty payments anymore, and he just received his feedlot bill.
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Once you start agreeing with TDSH, you know that you're wrong.
Last words of Robert Lewis Stevenson: “What’s that! Does my face look strange?” while trying to open a bottle of wine.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
No, this happens every once in a while when someone messes up an html tag I think.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
So just closing the tag didn’t work.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 21, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Apparently it did!
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2012 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Hip-hip hooray!
Why did the Steeler fan grow a mustache? So he could look like his mother.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 21, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
I actually did this to my wife tonight. I dropped my head in my hand and said "Am I have a stroke? She about crapped her pants….sooo (not) funny.
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 22, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
If I read one more “Colt just needs more weapons” comment I will stroke out.
Why did the Steeler fan grow a mustache? So he could look like his mother.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 21, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So, when RGIII is having problems in thie upcoming season, if we see a “RGIII just needs more weapons” can I video you stroking out?
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Once you start agreeing with TDSH, you know that you're wrong.
You know we’re adding weapons this offseason regardless of what we do at QB, right?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 22, 2012 1:23 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I am sick and tired of the Colt debate. You all might enjoy it, but I don’t. One side feels they have the knowledge to be able to predict a draft pick will become an elite QB, when no one can predict a draft pick’s chance of succeeding with any accuracy. Only 40% of 1st rd QB’s make it as starters. So, you folks who want RGlll, you have a 40% chance of success with RGlll. And you want to give up the house for odds that are definitely less than stellar. I am not a Mccoy apologist, but I tend to agree with Anthony. Oh, and next year, we can give up the farm for whoever we want, we will have most of the pieces in place after this year’s draft and FA. I HOPE, LOL. Have fun duking it out here, I’m out.
by OldTimeDawg on Feb 21, 2012 4:47 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
It’s 40% because teams get desperate for QBs and reach on guys like Gabbert who wasn’t even good playing in a Big 12 spread (16 TDs? Griffin had 37 and only 6 ints).
Then you look for red flags – Jamarcus being lazy, Vince Young, headcase, Harrington, weak arm. If you look at the busts they almost always had a mental or physical red flag that people ignored because they were desperate.
Now please tell me what Griffin’s red flags are? No playing a spread doesn’t count. They have to be about him, not his system.
by HenryDawg on Feb 21, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was just figuring this out. If you look at guys like JP Losman, Cade mcnown, and others who weren’t even mocked at the time in the 1st but some team got desperate and made a play for them, the number gets much better.
It’s higher than 40%, something like 45% in recent year. That jumps to 58% when looking at guys who were legitimate, consensus 1st rounders.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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I saw that in the other thread and made the comment that I was riding your coat tails again. 58% is really good considering your chances of success without one of those guys is probably less than 5%.
I can’t think of a position in the 1st round that has a success rate higher than 60%. Even Kicker has had guys who were barely even worth drafting (mike nugent anyone?). There is no “safe” pick in the 1st round or any round, but contrary to popular belief, QB is one of the safer ones. So is CB and like QB, the elite ones almost always come from the 1st.
DT is another story…
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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I am pretty sure Kicker in the first round has a 100 percent success rate. There have only been two I believe and they were both very, very good Kickers. Definitely not worth taking in the first round, but they were definitely not busts.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 21, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
Also, punters have a 100 percent hit rate in the first round. Ray Guy apparently was the first and only punter to be taken in the first round (love Al Davis!), and he was definitely not a bust. (Still not worth using a first round draft pick on, but Al loves a big leg and a big arm.)
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 21, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
my bad, Nugent was a 2nd rounder.
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It actually was the 2nd (looked it up for that comment), 47th overall. Definitely not a 1st rounder.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Oh, and next year, we can give up the farm for whoever we want
No, we can’t. We won’t have as much ammunition. We also will have no idea what pieces we have on offense because we still won’t have a QB.
40% is a better chance than Colt, and that’s all that matters. As multiple NFL GMs have repeated for us, unless you have a QB, you have to be looking for one. It is the number one priority.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
All other things aside, this point needs to be reiterated. The notion of “oh well, if we don’t a QB this year, we’ll just take one next year” really needs to be contemplated by its proponents. It’s only realistic if wind up with another 5 win or less season. A. I will never advocate a line of thinking that assumes the Browns will suck, just can’t do it. B. This team will collect a few more wins next year, whether we get a QB or stand pat. The chunks of the original line of thinking that didn’t throw up back into my mouth are correct: this team will benefit from a full off season and the team will add more talent to the roster. Regardless, this would create the worst possible scenario where we have to reach on a QB (a la Gabbert) that isn’t as strong a prospect as the next year’s top 2-3 QBs.
I sympathize with this dude, not too long ago I was not so much high on McCoy as I was leary of the QBs in this draft outside of Luck. Then I decided to spend about a week of my recreational internets time watching everything I could of RGIII play. Case closed. I watched him make egg basket touch throws after quick scrambles, quick setting feet, rockets down the field and he made these plays even when things broke down around him. The single best move our FO can make to improve this team is drafting this player, period.
In the best case scenario Colt McCoy will land in the Marc Bulger range of production, a couple years with some great numbers and the rest… meh. I can understand, after a decade with very few bright spots from the QB position, a Marc Bulger in the hand (someone can really run the pun factor on that one!), is very tempting over what’s shakin’ in the draft bushes. But, much more likely, McCoy will wind up with a career more along the lines of Jay Fiedler. Again, win some games, nothing flashy, and well… nothing flashy. Both of those guys had talent around them… and no rings to show for it.
by Mal Reynolds on Feb 21, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
a Marc Bulger in the hand (someone can really run the pun factor on that one!), is very tempting over what’s shakin’ in the draft bushes.
Good post. The beautiful thing about all of this is that we’ll still have Colt on the team. It isn’t like a stipulation of drafting RG3 is that Colt must be released or traded. He’s still a part of this team right now whether we draft another QB or not.
I wouldn’t be at all upset about having Marc Bulger come is as our backup.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
Very well put, especially the part about refusing to subscribe to a theory that depends on the team sucking next year. More specifically, I think the argument for filling out the positions around the QB before getting the actual guy is extremely flawed because it makes us just good enough to be out of range for a stud QB, barring giving up an entire draft plus next year’s first – no thanks.
Get the stud first. Hell, play McCoy for the first year if you’re really that terrified of “feeding him to the dogs” without much supporting talent on the offensive side, but for all that’s holy on heaven and earth….
GET A REAL QB
and the rest will come into line
A key issue that everyone keeps looking over with the whole “QB’s bust, draft another position” angle.
Other positions bust. If we draft a WR and RT in the first round (knock on Wood) who is to say that we didn’t grab Tony Ugoh and Charles Rogers? All positions bust.
Just a thought.
Why did the Steeler fan grow a mustache? So he could look like his mother.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 21, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
All positions bust at a rate between 45% and 60%. maybe some are slightly below 45% over some period of time (maybe DT or Safety for example), but they all are generally the same.
I would hope that the FO would be good enough not to make a millen-esque mistake.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Answer: no.
Too quick to be posting two Fan Posts about unoriginal subjects hours after joining? Yes.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
Isn’t the point of this site to talk football? At least I’m doing that. I’m on here to talk about the team that I love, which is the Browns, not to just shoot down those who at least have something to say about the team. Can’t say the same for you bro.
You’re more than welcome to say whatever you want about the team. We don’t censor TLP after all, that has got to prove something right there. You just have to put it in the right place.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 22, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Do you guys really think RG3 will change the Browns? How come Baylor finished #17 in the country and the shit QB (Colt) almost won a national title. Colt never had any weapons. Everybody is saying you need a franchise QB but I think you need weapons and a awesome Defense to make QB look good. Look at the Giants, SF, Steelers and Baltimore. Look at both their college stats, it’s funny, there both identical so that means RG3 will stink like Colt, right?
Baylor had the 8th worst scoring D in the country. The last time Baylor was in the top 25, RG3 wasn’t even born.
He leads them to #17 in the first time in over 2 decades with absolutely no D and Colt did so much more?
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RGIII’s O-line pass protection wasn’t exactly an impenetrable wall either.
by Mal Reynolds on Feb 22, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
I was just going with the very basics, but yes that’s also true.
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This isn’t really helping my cause here…there’s no question that the Browns will be better than they are now with RG3. My whole point is that I feel that there are so many more needs right now that we should be weary to give up the 4 and the 22 to get him with all of these other needs. If he slips to 4, then that’s a different story. Not helping me out here man…
Not only this, but the fact that everyone is crapping on McCoy and there is still a reasonable chance he will be our starter next year if the FO agrees with you about needs. How are we all going to feel about this season if they continue on with McCoy?
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 22, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
How are we all going to feel about this season if they continue on with McCoy?
That we will lose a lot of football games 10-3.
Why did the Steeler fan grow a mustache? So he could look like his mother.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 22, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I guess you mean “negatively”. It always sucks to feel bad, especially about your whole football season :(
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 22, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
“giving up” the 4 and 22 isn’t really accurate, as we would be acquiring the 2 pick in the transaction.
if you’re really going to tell me that sacrificing the 22 pick — which is the scenario you lay out here — in order to get a potential franchise qb at the 2 pick is going to set the franchise back eons … well, i’m going to politely duck out of the conversation.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 22, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
QB is the single most important position on the field. There is no question in your mind that the team will be better with RG3? Then I don’t get the hang-up. I know we would be giving up the 22nd pick to move up 2 spots, but we will still have picks in pretty much all the other rounds. You have to find your QB in the 1st and in a way, the 22nd pick is “found money” in my eyes considering the way we got it.
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I hereby move to draft Kalil so my own personal Jesus, Joe Thomas can move to QB. Now we have a God at QB and the second coming at LT. Receivers and running backs? Who needs ‘em. JT certainly can will the Heavens open up and dump Jesus rays down on the whole team while decidedly smiting opposing teams with Hellfire and Brimstone. Cleveland 316, Pittsburgh -2. After reading this latest thread, I wanted to kill myself but I realized if I did, I wouldn’t be able to spend eternity with Joe :0).
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 21, 2012 11:25 PM EST reply actions
Joe Thomas can’t play QB. His arm is so strong, only Joe Thomas can catch Joe Thomas’ pass.
Why did the Steeler fan grow a mustache? So he could look like his mother.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 22, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Good point, I never took Physics.
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 22, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
OTOH….I do philosophize a bit. Can Joe Thomas outrun a Joe Thomas pass?
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 22, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Can Joe Thomas break his own arm?
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 22, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
These are life’s greatest questions. Joe Thomas > Universe or Universe > Joe Thomas?
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 22, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Joe Thomas is the universe.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 22, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Do you ever wonder if Joe Thomas reads this stuff?
Yes im a troll. Yes I hate everyone. Yes I like Colt McCoy. Yes Im 4 years old. Yes I get butt hurt. Deal with it.
Joe Thomas has literally never been on the Internet. Cuts into time he could be fishing, hunting, or grilling what he fished and hunted.
Steel Nick
Now I want to go camping.
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 22, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
But he’s also fast enough to be able to catch his own passes, so it would work.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
Nobody except Joe Thomas can have Joe Thomas. Well and the Browns, but everything the Browns do must be cleared with Him.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Feb 22, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
I wish he would stop clearing us going 5-11 and 4-12 every year. . . .
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 22, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Joe Thomas respects the game of football enough to let other teams win.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Feb 22, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Are you willing to give up BOTH of your first round picks for RG3 though, with all of the other needs that we have? That’s really my biggest reason that I’m weary about drafting him. If he slips to 4 (which I think is rather unlikely), then that’s a different story.
No other need is as great as the need for a QB.
Why did the Steeler fan grow a mustache? So he could look like his mother.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 22, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
you realize, of course, that you can only select one player with the 22 pick, right? i’m not sure how sacrificing a single pick stands in the way of us addressing
all of the other needs that we have
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 22, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t get behind you here. Whether the question is rhetorical or not, the answer is obvious from the majoritarian fleecing this line of questioning begets.
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 22, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Are you willing to give up BOTH of your first round picks for RG3 though, with all of the other needs that we have?
This really is an easy question to answer.
Caveat: I — along with most everyone else on this site — are not qualified to make that decision. (The few who are qualified to answer that question probably couldn’t without sitting down and learning a ton more information.)
With that being said, IF the front office believes there is a good chance he can become an elite quarterback, yes, he is worth using both first round picks on. No doubt whatsoever — in fact, you can probably give up more than that if necessary. HOWEVER, if the front office does NOT believe that there is a good chance he can become an elite quarterback, then he is not worth taking with the 4th overall pick. As you and many others have said, we have too many other needs to take a flyer at the number 4 overall pick on a guy the front office is not convinced by.
It’s really that simple. To repeat: if front office believes, they do whatever is necessary (within reason) to get him. Trading your late first round pick is unquestionably worth that. If the front office does not believe in him, he is not worth trading anything of significant value for, and he is certainly not worth taking with the fourth overall pick.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 22, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So true, I wish it could be left at this every time. P.S. I tried to stay away, but it…..it is like crack* and i’m weak.
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 22, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
In other words, he’s either worth trading up for or not talking at all.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 22, 2012 1:25 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
No, but I’m willing to give up the 22 and get a higher first round pick in return. Giving up two first rounders seems silly, RG3 definitely won’t be there at 37.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 22, 2012 1:22 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I think we’ll have to give more than 4 and 22 and I would do it in a heartbeat. We may put us on a slightly longer trajectory but who cares. RG3 isn’t going to win the SB in year 1 anyway.
i think you can get the deal done w/ the 4, 22, and one of the 4th round picks (we have ours and the falcons’). and i do that deal in less than a second.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 22, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
Yes. on offense, a good QB makes your needs look less significant. When you don’t have a QB holding onto the ball for 5-7 seconds, your pass blocking looks better. His ability to throw it in stride for the WRs makes them look better. Threatening the D deep makes the run game look better. In short, it opens up your offense.
The Browns can still resign peyton hillis, get a FA WR like meacham, draft a RT in the 2nd/3rd round and a WR in the 3rd/4th round and fill a huge number of needs. Our biggest needs are on offense and that is the place where a QB can more easily hide deficiencies.
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by bross09 on Feb 22, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
See, I think the potential for RGIII is much higher than that of Colt McCoy. RGIII just has way too many strengths for me to think that McCoy is going to be better than him.
Here’s what I think: We draft RGIII. We draft/sign WRs and linemen. Then next year or the year after that, if Colt lights it up in the pre-season or if he starts a game or two and plays well, then we can trade him to a QB starved team and get more goodness. Matt Flynn is going to get paid a ton of money off of two NFL starts- Colt McCoy should fetch a nice return if he starts a couple of games and does well.
unfortunately for us and for mccoy, colt has started too many games and done not-that-well to fetch a great return if he puts up 3 good games in spot duty replacing rg3.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 22, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
he deserves one more year. with a wide receiver that can catch. the browns lead the league in drops last year. i know most of you guys watched most of the games…colt had some bad throws every once in a while, but it seemed more often than that the receivers were the oens dropping touchdowns and first downs.
one year with a real camp to learn the offense and having a reliable receiving threat makes a huge difference.
if we land blackmon or a legitmate number 1 in FA and our defense plays equal and we dont win at least twice as many games then yea, colt is the problem and then we should discuss getting a new QB
by wendigo on Feb 22, 2012 11:31 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
As the wise William Munny once said, “deserves got nothing to do with it.”
He deserves a chance to compete for the starting QB job, and that’s what he’ll get. The Browns have the opportunity to take a QB at the top of this draft that could anchor the offense for the next ten years. It’s simply incorrect to think that we’ll have a shot at a QB talent like RG3 draft after draft. We won’t. If Colt beats him out at camp for the job, kudos to him. Every QB in camp will have a chance to work with more talent at the skill positions next year. It’s been 5 years since the Browns have taken a shot at a first round QB. It’s time.
Another way of looking at this thing is to say Pat Shurmur, brought in for his experience developing offense, deserves a chance to upgrade the talent level at the most important position on that side of the ball. Or, do we see another rookie coach fail and scratch our heads wondering if he really had the opportunity to implement the schemes and designs he’s fully capable of due to a lack of talent in his QB.
by Mal Reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I agree he at least deserves to compete next year. You know what other team was among the league leaders in drops though/ Packers, but we have beaten to death that one around here.
The WRs had their drops, but they also were handcuffed in making plays because the ball wasn’t hitting them in stride so the defenders could catch up to them.
I don’t think colt had the weapons around him to succeed, but I also think he may be the type of QB (like a Kyle Orton) who needs good weapons around him to succeed, instead of making his weapons better.
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Speaking of in-stride, maybe my RG3 goggles have just gotten too thick but when I watch highlights of other QBs like Luck, Weeden, Tannehill, they seem to be mostly hitting stationary targets. When I see Griff’s tape, he is always hitting moving targets in stride. Am I nuts?
Yes, you’re nuts, but not for any of the reasons you just spoke about.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Feb 23, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Ironic coming from you.
Why did the Steeler fan grow a mustache? So he could look like his mother.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 23, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Luck does seem to hit some moving targets, but I have not seen a ton of the other guys. Not sure if it is by design of the offense if they hit stationary targets (the route ends at a certain point) or if they just don’t hit the guys in stride.
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Being a Browns fan for more years than I care to remember one thing has been a constent ….. don’t get your hopes up.
"There's a gleem"
First off, no one is giving up on Mccoy, we gave up on Quinn and he was gone, Colt will remain a Brown even if we get another quarterback. Mccoy was drafted as a potential "back up " quarterback behind Jake and Wallace. Mccoy was drafted in the 3rd round, he was potentially a starter but never titled the “future”.
He got his opputunity and showed flashes. Never was he consistent. But damn it we need a star not a flash! We need a Hall of Fame quarterback, Farve, Montana, Manning can make any reciever look like he belongs in the pro bowl. Those type of quarterbacks win games with anyone. Cleveland doesnt have a great supporting cast but a star quarterback can make everyone look good.
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