Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

by Chris Pokorny on Dec 4, 2007 1:27 PM EST in General News Comment 35 comments

Big plays are often negated by yellow flags. Amidst our stretch of losses this season, penalties have killed the Browns, particularly on the road. Case in point:

@ Pittsburgh: We had a chance to drive at the end of the game for a game-tying field goal attempt. After a nice punt return by Joshua Cribbs though, the play was brought back because of a holding penalty on Darnell Dinkins. Phil Dawson missed a 50+ yard field goal by about two or three yards, and we lost all hopes of winning the division.
@ Arizona (#1): In the first quarter, Leigh Bodden kicked the football while it was on the ground after Daven Holly had broken up a third-down pass. Bodden's may have been good enough for three points, but it counted for five yards in Arizona's favor, and a fresh set of downs. After the game, Bodden stated that he didn't know what he did was a penalty. Romeo Crennel took the blame for this:
"If [Bodden] didn't know kicking the ball was a penalty, then why don't a lot of people kick the balls?" Crennel said. "You can't kick the ball unless you're a kicker lining up to kick an extra point or on a kickoff. You don't kick the ball. If he didn't know, then I did a poor job."
@ Arizona (#2): Safety Brodney Pool had a late hit on Cardinals' receiver Steve Breaston, resulting in a 15-yard penalty and aiding the opposition's drive.
"At the end of the game - when field position is critical and yards are important - we get a personal foul to cost us more yards, which, as it turned out, if you're 15 yards closer it might help you in the game," Crennel said. "Things like that are disappointing."
@ Arizona (#3): Similar to the Pittsburgh game, we were flagged 15 yards needing a game-winning drive on a kick return when Simon Fraser retaliated a headbutt from a Cardinal with a headbutt of his own.
"That's not disciplined and that's not smart football," Crennel said. "We had far too many penalties in the game."

Who is to blame for these stupid penalties? Obviously the players are a fault for committing these penalties, but does that mean it's just a spontaneous, uncontrollable act, or is it something that the coaching staff hasn't drilled into their players' heads?

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Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

I tend to take these things individually. The holding call in the Pittsburgh game was questionable, and that probably has to do with road elements and bad officiating/conspiracy stuff than anything else.

Bodden's kick was totally on Bodden. He has been in the league long enough to know better, it was a mistake, he knew it then and certainly knows it now. He should be penalized somehow by the coaching staff/team. Like someone in the game thread mentioned, it was a Ruddesque play.

Pool's late hit was questionable. Like the Dinkins hold, I think this call was close and we probably didn't benefit from being on the road. Still, I think the benefit of the doubt in the situation should go to the player trying to finish the play as he has been taught his whole career.

I didn't see Fraser's headbutt. The tv guys mentioned it, but didn't show a replay, that I remember anyway. Fraser looked pretty pissed, probably because the refs missed whatever unsportsmanlike act he was responding to.

Grrr, so close, yet so far away. This week is a huge game.

by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 4, 2007 2:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Has to be on the individual. Blaming the coaching staff would be rather unimaginative and to suggest some conspiracy would be ludicrous. Players need to know better than to do stupid things like that. Bodden's simply defies explanation, a moronic move to further cloud his horrid season.

At least I wasn't born in Denver

by fwembt on Dec 4, 2007 3:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

I would blame Bodden. He's having a sub-par season, and the TD scored on that drive proved to be the point differential in the game.
As earlier stated, did not see the Fraser incident.
I hesitate to blame anybody for the Pool penalty. He was going hard at Breaston, and only offered a shove when Breaston had only one foot out of bounds. It wasn't malicious or intended to send Breaston flying to the ground. Only to blame here is a ticky-tack call.
Dinkins is getting called for too many penalties, he has to be guilty on some of them.

by dawginphilly on Dec 4, 2007 3:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Immature. That is the only way to describe the Browns. There are many bright spots. But we are an immature team.

by peebaweebanobby on Dec 4, 2007 6:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Obviously each is the fault of the individual(except maybe the Pool flag) but I think its indicative of a larger failure of the coaching staff to imbue discipline.

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.

by BringBackKosar on Dec 4, 2007 7:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

I've not seen Romeo headbutt anyone. How on earth is he supposed to prevent that kind of idiocy?

At least I wasn't born in Denver

by fwembt on Dec 5, 2007 12:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It's called coaching.

That's his job.

by TheDriveStillHurts on Dec 5, 2007 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

There was no excuse for Bodden's conduct. He lost it. I am certain his teammates will school him.

Bodden had the "Horse's Ass of the Week" award ripped from his hands by the Ravens' Scott, who also won the Earnest Byner award for two unsportsmanlike conduct penalties on one play.

Manning and Vinatieri each had a bad day and the Colts lost to the Chargers. Anderson and Cribbs had each had a bad day and the Browns lost to the Cardinals. Not exactly the same, but similar enough to deter spazzing over a loss.

by JamesPowell on Dec 5, 2007 12:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Each individual player is to blame for their respective penalties. Bodden not knowing you can't kick the ball when it's lying in front of you. Please. You play the game at a professional level and you don't know the rules?

But the Browns lost to the Cardinals because Derrick Anderson is not a very good quarterback. His pick 6 was bad, his second INT was absurd. There wasn't much Cribbs could have done with that dropped punt. Holly was in the way, the kick was not down the middle, it was a bad combination. If Cribbs doesn't try to catch it, it might have hit Holly and the Cards still would have recovered it. Tough spot.

by misterbaseball99 on Dec 5, 2007 10:17 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

And so it begins. Derrick [sic] Anderson is hardly to blame for the loss. That is ridiculous. 21-41, 304 yds, 2TD's and 2 INT's and you say he is not a very good quarteback? That is a better week than Tom Brady had, is he bad too? Peyton Manning, what a loser, threw four picks in a day. I say he should be cut.

Jumping on here now and starting to bash Derek Anderson after the incredible year he has put together for us is typical of the knee-jerk stupidity that sometimes effects Cleveland fans. Is he the next Joe Montana? No. But he is by far the best we have seen since the early 90's. We didn't lose that game because of him.

At least I wasn't born in Denver

by fwembt on Dec 5, 2007 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

I think a distinction needs to be drawn here. You're saying at the beginning that he's not a bad quarterback and he's the best we've had since Kosar/Testaverde. Agreed. But to say that he wasn't the reason we lost the game is taking it a little far.

I believe he is most responsible for the loss in that two turnovers, caused exclusively by him, resulted in a short field. Given the thin margins with which we are currently operating on defense, we cannot turn the ball over deep in opponent's territory and expect to escape only allowing a field goal. Therefore, it's hard not to blame the guy solely responsible for giving the Cardinals such cushy field position.

Speaking to the general question of his talent, what Anderson has been so good at since the Patriots game is avoiding turnovers. If he can't continue to improve at this he will, despite his standing in comparison to others of the expansion era, be replaced by Brady Quinn next year. That being said, he has improved since the beginning of the season. Sunday was a regression but I don't believe it to be permanent. My personal opinion is that his ceiling is still ahead of him if he can work on accuracy underneath and his decision-making.

by NickFantana on Dec 5, 2007 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

I disagree there. We turned the ball over four times. The Cribbs-Holly Incident gave them a short field as well. The blame for this loss is on the inexcusable amount of idiotic penalties. No team can be penalized that much and reasonably hope to win a game.

Anderson was not great but blaming solely him for the loss is a bit much. He made one really bad pass (the force to Edwards) and he and Carter combined to make a hash of one other play. Beyond that, he was a big reason we even had a chance to win at the end.

At least I wasn't born in Denver

by fwembt on Dec 5, 2007 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

You're right. One of my sentences made it sound like I was solely blaming him. I didn't mean for that to happen. I just meant to say that he was the MOST responsible on the team but then I can't think of anyone who played particularly well (maybe Brandon McDonald.)

To put it in LGT terms, his WPA was lowest but Bodden, Cribbs, Holly and Joe Thomas are close behind.

by NickFantana on Dec 5, 2007 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Now I get it. That clears things up a bit for me.

At least I wasn't born in Denver

by fwembt on Dec 5, 2007 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Wow, he completed 50% of his passes. Have you watched the games? In this offense he ought to complete AT LEAST that. He had 3 turnovers. The fumbled snap was on him. Take out those 3 turnovers and the Browns win the game.
That's not even mentioning the throws he missed. For whatever reason, he's not very accurate in the first few minutes of almost every game. He gets bailed out by Edwards and Winslow a lot, too.

Is DA the best QB we've had in 10 years? Yeah. But that doesn't make it Ok for him to not be as good as the talent around him. We lost in Arizona because of him. The penalties certainly didn't help, but Arizona had a lot of penalties, too.

by misterbaseball99 on Dec 5, 2007 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Hey, really well thought out there. "In this offense" by that do you mean the one where we throw the ball down the field with regularity? This isn't the West Coast offense here.

The fumbled snap was miscommunication with someone. Unless you happen to be the centre I highly doubt you know who.

Anderson is not great, no. But he didn't cost us that game. What about only 84 yards (10 from Anderson himself) rushing against a bad run defense? What about 10 penalties? What about poor tackling (again)? What about the fact that several penalties extended drives? What about getting 0 sacks? What about Cribbs having his worst day yet, only averaging 10 yards per return? What about allowing over 100 yards rushing again? What about the bad call at the end?

Oh, all of that doesn't matter? It was just Anderson's fault? Got it.

At least I wasn't born in Denver

by fwembt on Dec 5, 2007 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

I suppose you want to tell me Cribbs is at fault for not having his usual return numbers. In case you missed the game and only saw the box score, the Cards were kicking short every time. We still got pretty darn good field position out of it, typically starting at least on our own 30.

Our running game couldn't get it going because we were either playing from behind or else backed up to the point where we needed 15+ yards just to get a first down.

You want to tell me the defense played poorly? I'll agree, they didn't generate much pressure on Warner and they couldn't stop Edge when it mattered most, but the Cards got to work with a short field way too much, thanks to DA's turnovers. Yeah, Cribbs had a TO as well, but you can hardly fault him for tripping over Davin Holly while trying to catch a punt on the sideline.

The Cards got 21 of their points off turnovers. DA had 2 INTs, and ok, a botched snap that you could possibly put on him + the center. But he was directly involved in 3 turnovers.

You want to tell me he had nothing to do with the loss? Watch the games, dude. He misses a lot of open guys, he gets bailed out by amazing receivers, and at times he makes bad decisions. DA is not the reason the Browns are playoff bound.

by misterbaseball99 on Dec 7, 2007 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

A. I never said he had nothing to do with the loss. Apparently reading comprehension is a problem here.

B. I did watch the game and I know that the Cards kicked short. Cribbs was still ineffective and I certainly can fault him for trying to catch a ball he should obviously have let bounce. That is one instance the Cards got a short field right there but, since that was not Anderson's fault, you seem to overlook it.

C. You seem not to see anything good that Anderson does. He has a strong arm that stretches the defence. He doesn't take sacks. He has great chemistry with his targets. He puts the ball in good places most of the time. You want Tim Couch and his 65% completion rate back? Be my guest. I'll take Anderson, the downfield threat and the playoffs.

D. Anderson is 12th in the NFL in YPA, 9th in yards, 4th in TD's, 11th in rating, 10th in completions, 4th in TD%, and is tied with Peyton Manning in Int % and leads Roethlisberger and Tony Romo. Now, tell me again how he is not an integral part of this teams success.

At least I wasn't born in Denver

by fwembt on Dec 7, 2007 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Sorry Sparky,

Anderson is not the reason we've had an incredible year!

Have you noticed we have a better O-Line this year? How about a much more creative O-Coordinator? What about the fact we went from 31st last year to 16th this year in rushing?

When Anderson figures out how to throw a short pass without trying to knock the WR down he will be a good QB.

by rickyfeacher on Dec 6, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

There is a reason the Browns are in the playoff hunt and two games over .500 this deep into the season. That reason is Derek Anderson.

by dawginphilly on Dec 5, 2007 12:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

And the same reason they're 7-5 instead of 8-4 is also Derek Anderson!

Spotting a road team 14 points on 2 self inflicted TO's is not the mark of a play-off caliber QB.

When Anderson shows he can statistically perform as well on the road as he does at home, I'll jump on that train.

by rickyfeacher on Dec 6, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

So Peyton Manning is not playoff calibre either then, correct?

At least I wasn't born in Denver

by fwembt on Dec 6, 2007 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Have no clue what you're trying to coorelate with Manning, but here goes- yes Manning is a play-off QB.

He makes all the throw's unlike Anderson. Have you seen Anderson throw a short pass? I have and he has no touch. Vickers would have 8-10 more receptions if Anderson can throw a catchable ball to the RB. Manning has the touch, Anderson doesn't.

If you think Anderson is the reason the Brwons are 7-5, then you are either a relative of his, his agent or freakin' clueless!

Anderson is one reason we're having sucess, not the only reason.

Anderson is a great QB at home, awful on the road. Which makes him average.

by rickyfeacher on Dec 6, 2007 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Our road schedule has been much more difficult though than our home schedule. I don't expect Anderson to light up the Steelers, Pats, or even Cardinals (underrated D.) He did quite well against the Rams on the road. I think we need to look more at matchups than the home/road split.

by Roger Dorn on Dec 6, 2007 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

I'd have to disagree about the road games being tougher than the home games. Here are our games, negating division games (since it's split home/away):

Road:
-Oakland (Poor team)
-New England (They would've beat us regardless)
-St. Louis (Winless at the time)
-Arizona (Above average NFC team)

Home:
-Miami (Worst team in NFL. Just as irrelevant as the NE game on the road)
-Seattle (They've been in the NFC playoffs and their division champs for years. No slouches)
-Houston (They were 3-0 with Andre Johnson and playing stiffening defense)

Take out the Patriots game, and it's been fairly easy overall. When you add the Jets for the road, a low team, this week, and then the Bills, a Cardinals-like momentum team, next week, the schedule looks more and more like a 50/50 split.

by Chris Pokorny on Dec 7, 2007 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Manning did nearly the same thing, only worse, against SD this year. You can't just make a ridiculous blanket statement like that and expect it to fly.

I am neither a relative, agent, nor clueless and I think Anderson is a big part of it. If the line is so much better why was Frye sacked so much? The line is better, yes, but Anderson helps them by releasing the ball quickly. This enables us to have success in the passing game and get off the line a bit better when running. I never said Anderson was the only reason, just that he is a major contributor.

Ask yourself this. Would the Browns be 7-5 with Frye? Would they be significantly better than 7-5 with any other quarterback (excepting Manning and Brady, who are transcendent)? The answer to both questions is no and the reason is Derek Anderson. He is not great by any stretch but he is significantly above average.

At least I wasn't born in Denver

by fwembt on Dec 6, 2007 11:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

Anderson is the reason we are 7-5 only if the alternative is Charlie Frye or my 76 year old grandmother who has a bum arm. Anderson has been ok, good even. But we have a league average quarterback.

The reason we have a better than .500 record is because of a relatively schedule, an above average to very good O-Line, an good to very good group of WR/TE's, and a great to incredible kick return team.

Anderson didn't lose this game, but he did put us in a 14-0 hole. Let's not go to the extremes here. DA is not Manning, but he is also not Frye. He is average. He is 11th of 31 qualified QB's in passer rating with better lines and receivers than most. His completion % is 29th out of 31! Sure there are some drops, but I think this is a very important stat for QB's, and Anderson is ONLY better than Rex Grossman and Tevaris Jackson! So let's not go crazy with praise, crediting DA for our good fortune without recognizing his flaws and the good things around him.

by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 6, 2007 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

wow, lots of typos, sorry... most notably, 2nd paragraph- should say we have had a relatively WEAK schedule.

by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 6, 2007 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

A bum arm, sure, but what 40 time does your grandma have?

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.

by BringBackKosar on Dec 7, 2007 10:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

We lost. Teams lose winnable games all the time. Good teams lose to bad teams. Surprisingly, players on "disciplined" teams make penalties too. It's football...this stuff happens.

by dvd1204 on Dec 5, 2007 12:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

It has been 9 years since the Cleveland Browns were "relocated to Cleveland". We finally may have something here. This season has had it's ups and downs. My take on the blame goes like this ...
Anderson first. Derek is very inaccurate with his short passes. Do you realize how many short slants across the middle he's missed Edwards on? Always throwing behind him? My gawd, he misses wide open receivers all the time. I have never in my life seen a QB that misses so many dump offs to the running backs.
Edwards next. Braylon drops 2 passes a game right in his hands. He is awesome as a receiver, but always has 2 dropped passes a week.
Tucker and Shaffer next. More illegal procedure calls on these 2 guys than the rest of the line put together. When Anderson says "on 2" wait until you hear 2, not 1.
Dawson next. The missed 30 yd clutch kick in the Oakland game cost us big time. He's also missed an extra point or 2. Short kick offs too. We don't need to give the opponent the ball on their own 35 or 40 to start.
Defense next and foremost. No pass rush, missed tackles constantly, stupid penalties on the defensive backfield. Bodden gets burned more than anyone.
Defensive line coach. We need some pressure on their QB. MIX IT UP !!!
We need to use Harrison more. He reminds me of Eric Metcalf, and lord knows we didn't use Metcalf right. Remember, "Metcalf up the middle"?
We need a killer instinct also. When you get a 2 point lead, "DON'T SIT ON THE BALL". GO FOR THE JUGGLAR!!
Personally, I think Winslow will be leaving free agancy at the end of his contract. Try and tie him up for years to come. We also need to draft some defensive linemen, or get a new defensive coach that is more creative. GO BROWNS ! ! !

by DrDanOBGYN on Dec 6, 2007 8:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

I am sorry Dr. Dan, but I couldn't disagree more. Anderson may be inacurrate at times, but he is 4th in the league in TD passes, vs. only 13 INTs. Do you think he was to blame for the unbelievable 18-yd completion he made near the end of regulation vs. Baltimore to Edwards to even give Dawson the 51 yd attempt?
All receivers drop balls, and it's frusterating, but there is a reason Edwards is on-pace to break every Browns single-season receiving record there is, he's a top 5 NFL receiver, the stats will prove it.
Phil Dawson is 21 of 24, good for 9th in the NFL, and has 98 pts, good for 4th in the NFL. He is 5-7 of kicks 40+ yds. Robo-Phil is a pro's pro, and I don't know who you've been watching since '99.
Four of the 5 reasons you listed, "blamed" the offense for our shortcomings. This unit averages the 4th most points per game in the NFL, and can be thanked for our success thus far, not blamed.

by dawginphilly on Dec 6, 2007 10:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

I didn't blame the offense directly. I blamed the defense more than the offense. I admitted Edwards was awesome but he could be alot better. Anderson is pretty good too but his lack of being able to hit the backs out of the backfield and Edwards on the short slant could make a big difference if these passes were completed. Anderson admitted he still needs work on the short passes because in college all he did was throw the bomb. 2 or 3 weeks ago we had illegal procedure calls on 3 out of 4 consectutive plays. Thats my complaint against the offensive line. Joe Thomas and Steinbach have been great. Thomas gets my vote for rookie of the year. The defensive complaint is justified if you ask anyone. We also need a killer instinct. Blitzing 0 or 1 times a game and rushing 3 when they get behind hasn't worked yet. I have seen many, many games in my lifetime where the Browns will sit on a 2 point lead, only to lose the game. This is the best Browns team we have had since the rebirth. The possibilities are endless. I'm not saying the Browns suck or deserve to be in Baltimore. I'm just saying as a die hard Browns fan for the past 50 years, I see alot of things that could be better. We should be 9-3 and possibly 10-2 right now. We had Oakland and Pittsburgh beat and should have beat Arizona. Its tough to start out with 2 interceptions and a fumble and come from behind. I'm just saying we could be alot better.

by DrDanOBGYN on Dec 6, 2007 3:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

After going over all the AFC QB stats, I found this among the starting QB's. Derek Anderson is 5th in QB ratings in the AFC, 3rd in TD passes, he is "last" in completion % (thats very LAST), 4th in yardage, 7th in average per completion, he's in the middle of the pack with 13 interceptions, he has been sacked the least of any other starter in the AFC so he has time to scan the defense and make good decisions. Problem is he doesn't. He tries to force the ball in, he is terrible with the dump off passes to the running backs and short passes over the middle. Sure, he has a great game once in awhile, but his bad decisions keep him from being a better than average quarterback. I would rather have a smart QB than a strong armed one that doesn't have the brains. If the Browns averaged 10 TD's a game over 50 yards then I would agree with "dawginphilly", otherwise Anderson is a average QB at best.

by DrDanOBGYN on Dec 9, 2007 12:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Open Discussion: Who is to Blame?

We won, but very easily could have lost that game. Anderson played his usual game. He barely completed 50% of his passes. He missed 7 passes under 7 yds to wide open receivers. Winslow 4, Edwards 2, and Jurevicius 1. His confussion in the huddle cost at least 1 delay of game penalty and one time out. If Anderson would complete those little 5 yard passes and dump offs he would have a 65% completion ratio. Thus he has a 55% ratio and is very last in completion % for starters in the AFC. As I mentioned before about Harrison. He came in for a few plays and busted his 1st run for 17 yds.
I'm asking Santa for a new defensive coordinator and some kind of deal that will bring us a few decent draft picks. Lord knows we need some defensive help, a killer instinct and consistency.
GO BROWNS ! !

Dan

by DrDanOBGYN on Dec 9, 2007 7:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs